Episode 56 Transcript

Here is the transcript for the Round Table episode (no. 56) Note that the majority of this was created using an automated transcription service. Grammar, punctuation and sentence structure may not be totally accurate. -------------------------------------- Gary C 0:35 I'm Gary and this is episode 56 of EV Musings a podcast about renewables electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. Yes, it's the second EV Musings Roundtable. Before we start I just wanted to ask listeners to this podcast, please leave a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts reviews are great for the show as they help our rankings in search engines, and I can then invite more and more great guests on the show to talk about things that matter to you. And, as if this was a pre written segue, that brings us on to our main topic of today, the roundtable. Our feature topic today isn't a single feature topic we're going to be discussing several items of interest to EV drivers in much the same way that we did back in Episode 20, where four of us sat in my Kia Soul at Kent EVs meet and talked about things like free charging and the like, links to that episode, are in the show notes. To help me in this endeavour I have a number of very special guests so I like to introduce them to you now. Firstly, a returning guest and someone who was in that Kia Soul with me in Kent, Leanne Roberts. Leanne is co founder of Sussex EVs, and part of the steering committee of the EVgroups Nexus. Hello Leanne. Leanne 1:48 Hello, there. Gary C 1:49 Next we have Gill Nowell, passionate about electric vehicles since 2012, Gill is the founder of EV clicks and a founding director of Electric Vehicle Association England, she also has a day job hi Gill. Gill 2:01 Hi Gary. Gary C 2:03 Hi. Now another returning guests from our secondhand EVs Episode a few weeks ago. Welcome back, Jonathan Porterfield, owner of ecocars.net and the man who has sold 300 of Orkney's 350 EVs. Jonathan Welcome back, Jonathan 2:17 Hello Gary Thanks for having me. Gary C 2:19 My pleasure. Staying in Scotland we have Heather Kennedy EV driver for five years, founder of the Scottish EV drivers club and the sustainable transport coordinator for Home Energy Scotland managed by the energy saving trust. Hello and welcome Heather. Heather 2:32 Hi Gary thanks for having me on. Gary C 2:35 It's an absolute pleasure. And finally, but by no means least, we have Dan Caesar Dan is an EV and clean energy fan and managing director of a little enterprise you may have heard of called Fully Charged welcome Dan Dan 2:47 Hi Gary. Gary C 2:48 Welcome everyone, we're looking forward. I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion so let's get right to it. We have a number of topics to discuss today, each member of our roundtable is going to lead a part of the discussion, and the topics we're going to talk about our EV infrastructure, encouraging EV take up in the general population. What EV models should mainstream dealers be producing EV a England and how it can help EV drivers loans and grant funding for sustainable transport and the future of charging, because we like to think of ourselves as chivalrous on the show we are of course going to start with Ladies first. So can I ask Gill to open the discussion, please, Gill 3:25 Thanks so much Gary. So, my topic for discussion is Electric Vehicle Association, England, or EVA England, EVA England was set up as a community interest company in June this year. It is committed to providing a voice for electric vehicle drivers, and also prospective electric vehicle drivers in England, and it's run by EV drivers, myself included, I'm one of the founding directors. The aims and objectives of EVA England are to promote electric vehicle use in England. Also to promote environmental and health benefits of electric vehicles to the public, to represent the interests of current and prospective electric vehicle drivers and to provide services to EV drivers in England. We really wanted to be effective, from the very outset. So, one of our first actions, was to issue a survey to invite views on the phaseout date of new petrol and diesel cars and vans. There they will feed into the government consultation on whether the phase out date should be brought forward from 2040 to 2035, or even perhaps sooner than 2035. Really encouragingly we had over 1100 responses to that survey. I'll be able to reveal some of the results in the course of the discussion I hope that I'd like to know what the roundtable thinks: Should phase out date of new sales of petrol and diesel cars and vans be brought forward. And if so, to wen? If that phase out date is brought forward could the automotive industry, facilitate a phase out data say 2030, or even earlier? Gary C 5:21 Well, let me start by saying I don't, I could be wrong. but I don't think there's anyone on this call who thinks that the phase out date should be where it is at the moment I think we should be bringing it forward and correct me if I'm wrong. Jonathan 5:34 Yes. Yeah, I think it was fought for by Scotland, trying to get the head start on UK or England rather. Gary C 5:44 So, I mean, me personally, the sooner the better. There are obviously there are going to be things that need to be in place for that to happen. We've got to make sure that we've got the infrastructure there and that's hopefully something that Jonathan is going to talk about in a short while, but I think if we can get all the ducks in a row, I don't see any reason why we can't bring it forward to, you know, whatever they're talking about- 2032. Gill 6:07 Yeah, yeah. Scotland isn't it, I think? Gary C 6:11 Leanne. Leanne 6:11 I personally agree that there definitely needs to be more pressure and bringing that date forward. As far as I'm concerned, I mean, how long does a person in the automotive industry stay in the same job. Surely if we bring that date sooner, then you're going to get more people that need to actually work with that manufacturer to get them producing more EVs as well as bringing, you know, the phase out date forward. Jonathan 6:36 I also think the market will push this or bring this forward as well I think market forces new and used people are finally waking up to the fact that EVs are a viable alternative. And I think the day will come sooner for a lot of manufacturers. And once we get to that price parity where, you know, a mid sized hatchback is more or less the same price as diesel equivalent. I think people will just vote with their wallets, and will hasten that switch quicker because of market forces. Gary C 7:10 Now, D an obviously you're with the work that you do you're sort of closer to some of the people who have more of a say in this. What's the general feeling that you're getting from the people that you're in contact with. Dan 7:23 Well I think most people except it's going to be moot. The 2035 date, I think, for me, 2032 is still not soon enough. I mean, we're pretty bullish and prone to upsetting people. But we think this could happen, a fair bit quicker. You just got to balance that against how quickly you know industry could deliver it. We have enough infrastructure, etc. But right now without wishing to kind of mention the, the COVID word is almost an opportunity is there not I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't been a Scrappage scheme or something like that it was mooted but I think it was considered to be too difficult. And so that hasn't happened but I think there was an opportunity and that opportunity still exists because I think the consumer think their opinions on on what car they drive if they drive a car at all, has just changed, and is in the process of changing very rapidly. Gary C 8:18 Does that indicate that what's underlying this is more of a political decision rather than a logistical or a physical decision? Dan 8:26 I think, it's really really difficult I do have quite a lot of sympathy for the car companies on one hand, but, but on the other hand, they have to be kind of pushed forward you know this is an industry that that had to be kind of proded on seatbelts, for example, you know they're not necessarily going to want to move in this direction you can completely understand that they've got to get a lot of ducks in a row, and it is very very difficult but at the same time, you know, if you want to be a leader you want to seize the moment I think there's an opportunity for UK to kind of really kind of go for it and as ever. The Scottish are a bit ahead of the English. Gary C 9:05 Is there a danger that we're going to have a lack of joined up thinking? Dan 9:07 Definitely. Yeah, I think, I think there is for sure, I think, you know, with any kind of political decision and I've been fortunate to do some lobbying over the years you know tends to be who shouts loudest and I think in the UK, particularly in England at the moment, car companies will will be in a lot of pain, and no one, no one underestimates, how bad that is, but at the same time, there is, there is a great opportunity to push back and say look, you know, there's a there's a chance here for the UK to be a leader in some of these things, whether it's batteries or, or vehicle manufacturer, componentry etc. So I think it is, is a time to be brave and I think sometimes you know you could, you know, again I'm really trying to stay away from politics but you might argue that quite often what you see from the London based government is, is the kind of classic, you know, decision by committee, you know, and a horse, designed by committee as a camel. I think that's what we see love and I think just being bold and leading is really really important I think UK has quite good opportunity still I don't think it's too late for us to play a leading role in this sort of thing. And there was some rumours wasn't there flying around about bringing forward the date and plus a Scrappage scheme and mostly there was the green number plates story as well and then the number plates story came out before anything else and then that kind of sounded like there wasn't a lot of joined up thinking going on straight, straight away. Leanne 10:36 That story keeps returning the one about the green number plates keeps returning. Dan 10:40 It's easy to have a photograph next to a green number plate I can be cynical yeah that's the kind of, that's the kind of thing that it is easy to kind of show you know show pro progress. I actually think that there's some pros and cons to that I'm sure you know I'm talking to fellow people who are passionate about EVs and we can all see the pros and the cons of of that particular approach but it's actually relatively superficial compared to some of the other things that we could be doing right now. Gary C 11:09 Totally agree. Gill? Gill 11:10 Yeah, I just want to pick up on on a word that Dan used a few moments ago and that is the word bold, because one of the respondents to EVAs, EVA England's survey phase out date was, be bold and everyone will ben- will benefit, and I think that's really really nice, and pick out another couple of other quotes actually one of the other participants wrote sorry, respondents said, you know, we cannot wait any longer for clean air in our towns and cities. And I think that's you know that's so true as well isn't it when we consider that poor air quality, which is largely attributable to road transport emissions is responsible for about 40,000 premature deaths every year in the UK. So, no that is significant. Clearly, and it's a real imperative as to why we need to make this transition as soon as possible. If I could just go on to some of the really headline findings from the survey that we put out. So, 96% of respondents who MVA in the survey believe that an earlier phase out date would have a positive impact on public health. So that's 96% of respondents. And then, 64% of all survey participants believe that phase out date should be moved to 2030. So again, really quite know interesting to found out through this survey and that's something, of course that will be feeding back into government, Gary C 12:46 is there a case to say that the message that the government should be giving as a sort of an impetus for this is the health message rather than, for example, the environmental message because you know when people hear electric cars they think, you know, there's an environmental impact on that - a positive one, whereas if we, if we were to say, well actually one of the main issues is air quality, and by going to electric cars, that's going to improve air quality is there a case to say that, you know, the government using that as the focus would have more impact than the environmental focus? Gill 13:23 I think I think it can only help, Gary, in that of course the pandemic has really raised the issue of improved the benefits of improved air quality it's been visible for us all to see. However, I think one of the core messages in terms of encouraging people to switch to electric cars, is that actually they're a better car to drive, you know, and I feel that still, it's that the message is well that is going to encourage more and more people to make the switch their you know their superior vehicles to drive. You know almost in every way I'd say. Gary C 13:57 Okay,. Is there anything else you'd like to bring up on this particular topic? Gill 14:03 I just like to say that, you know, look out for the summary report of the survey and, and we'll be releasing more results in the coming days and weeks. Gary C 14:12 Fantastic. Leanne, can you lead us through your topic, then please. Leanne 14:18 Yes, Gary. So when the increase in EV uptake is most certainly going in the right direction. But as owners we all know there's still a long way to go before we see a significant decrease of fossil fuel vehicles being used for personal transport, how can we encourage more car drivers to switch to electric, should the government be doing more to increase EV uptake in private and commercial vehicles, should they be putting pressure on manufacturers to phase out diesel and petrol models, I shall pass it out to the table. Gary C 14:49 There is a large overlap obviously between that and the discussion that we've, we've just had but from an actual logistical point of view, we've always said on the podcast, the easiest way to get people into an electric car is to physically get somebody to sit in and drive an electric car. And I don't think there's enough of that going on, I think, you know, places like the EV Experience Centre in Milton Keynes are fantastic because you can get in there. You can, you know, do a 20 minute drive, you can borrow one for a couple of days but there just aren't enough places like that around the country where people who are curious can actually physically sit in there and try one because as Gill quite rightly says one of the best ways to sell these is on the fact that they're a superior car to just about anything else that's on the road. So, the more we can get people into them, the better it's going to be. Jonathan 15:40 I find as well that people that do become EV drivers they become real advocates themselves, and they'll talk to family members and neighbours and the neighbours will will look at their new leaf or whatever seen on the drive and sneer and say 'how long is the extension lead?' you know, and 12 months later, to chat with the neighbour, the neighbour says is absolutely brilliant. And the neighbour realises that he's never actually run out. And I think word of mouth is such a powerful thing to get people over that mental block of the fact that I'm going to drive down the road and run out and it can take 26 hours to recharge and that's still something that I hear regularly, but word of mouth means such a powerful incentive for people, rather than the government waving a big financial incentive. Gary C 16:31 Heather, you've been a bit quiet on this Do you have anything? Heather 16:34 I was going to actually see, emm, as actually, I ended up getting into EV driving about five years ago, and my dad was, he was like, you know, and my brother took him for a test drive and think within a few weeks he bought a Renault Zoe the same as me. And then, so from there I ended up, obviously getting into the energy saving trust and running the Scottish EV drivers club to try and encourage more uptake of EVs, but what Jonathan's actually had a few events organised as well to try and get bums on seats, so to speak, in just to encourage the uptake of it, because everybody says the only way really to alleviate people's fears of these vehicles is actually to get them to have a shot of them once they set in that car they are going to change their mind about them so. Leanne 17:30 It very much links into our own story where the first we knew of the Nissan leaf was when my brother actually got a 24 kilowatt hour Acenta And he, he was raving about it so we went up to, we went up to visit him up in Yorkshire. And he let Neil set in one, and took him out for a drive. And after that Neil was sold, pretty much as simple as that it's just getting into the car and driving it as you say, makes all that difference. And then when we looked at the financials. It was perfectly affordable, and also my brother was doing trips from Yorkshire down to Sussex despite it taking a long time, and proving it could be done. Gary C 18:16 Now that you've touched on a topic which a lot of people are going to use as a stick to beat EV drivers which is the cost. Now there is a perception rightly or wrongly that they are way too expensive. Now, I think, in the episode of the podcast that was released today, as we're, which is the Monday the, whatever it is 28. I do go through a number of calculations to say, Well, no, they are more expensive if you're comparing an EV in a particular range like the mini with the bottom of the range mini but it's not a like for like comparison. So, is there a case to say we need some sort of education to go to people and say no if you're looking at the electric version of a similar petrol model, then the price differential isn't actually as big as you think it is? Leanne 19:08 Yes. So, I would certainly agree with that and I think there's a lot of mindset that people think that they've got to buy their cars outright when they get them as well. And wouldn't necessarily look at PCP or leasing or anything like that and I think that's certainly where there does need to be a change of mindset, Gary C 19:27 Dan. One of the other things that I think plays into this is the mainstream dealers and how they deal with it, you know, trying to sell when you know when you're going to a mainstream dealer, would they necessarily focus on selling the electric version of a Kona, for example because I believe there's the non electric version the hybrid version or not. What's your feeling from the discussions that you're having with manufacturers about how their mindset is changing on that sort of thing. Dan 19:58 I think it is changing but I don't think it's reached the dealerships yet at all on this panel you've got i mean i'm gonna be the one upsets everyone I can see the show I'm going to be the shock jock on this on this particular podcast Gary but you know you've got on one hand on this panel you've got Jonathan, who is like the kind of hero person who will absolutely advocate for ev. And then you've got the opposite of that going on in pretty much every kind of main dealership around the country with a few, you know, shiny exceptions there's a guy we know who runs the MG dealership in Chorley and he's really kind of pro pro EV some of you might even even know him but those are people that kind of, you know, the glitter amongst the chicken feed really they don't want to sell electric vehicle particularly and so there's some better talk coming from headquarters of the car companies but not really seeing that kind of translate in the dealerships but I think your panels hit a lot on the two things that are the most important which is getting people in them, and familiar with them and the other thing is to m ake them realise that it isn't necessarily extortionate, but the one other thing I would say to court further controversy is that on that adoption curve there are plenty of people googling environmentally friendly cars right now, and some of them are being confronted with adverts for self charging hybrids, as well. Take them straight. A pure electric vehicle which I don't think is impossible. Then that will have a huge impact, at the moment there is some real mealy mouthed marketing going on. Jonathan 21:31 Can I just back up what Dan said, I've sold listened leave today. there's physically with me here on Orkney to a lady who lives in Rotherham, and over the weekend she went to a local Nissen dealer to test drive the old shape, Nissan LEAF, and she said her word she waited half an hour to be seen. Then when they finally bought the car round the sales person, new absolutely nothing about electric vehicles, she says, I knew more than they did. And she had to go in it but there was no way I was going to give them my business because they just didn't know what we were talking about. And that was just today. So, yeah, ignorance within dealerships franchise dealers, but most of which are independently owned is jaw droppingly ignorant, or they're just more bothered. And that's still relevant sadly, Gary C 22:23 Gill. Gill 22:23 Yeah, I was just, again, wanting to echo what what Dan and Jonathan and others have said my own experience, and I needed to find a, I was in the market for a secondhand electric car about 18 months ago, looking. Had I not known who to speak with. I think I had a chat with you, Jonathan if I remember but then Matt Clevely at Clevely EV, you know, and clearly such knowledgeable people. So genuinely passionate about electric cars, and they found, you know what I needed a secondhand Nissan LEAF, had I not known who to engage with, and I would have been in real difficulty, you know, and then I speak to people - and this is purely anecdotal- but somebody I spoke to recently said oh yeah but I had a drive an electric car and it was rubbish. And I said, well what was that? And they said I was a Toyota Auris I had to say that that wasn't actually an electric car. oh well they told me it was one. It just goes to show Doesn't it? Leanne 23:26 They didn't tell them how much co2 it puts out compared to a one litre petrol Heather 23:30 So part of the job this year, erm, is going to be to - have you heard of the electric vehicle approval scheme? The Energy saving trust or the Office of low emission vehicles are running So.. no? I don't know whether it is just Scotland thing at the moment. So it was launched in May 2019. So, basically, there's 50 dealerships that's been approved at the moment and they get a badge, they go through training and things like that, and then have to be approved basically to say they've learned everything about selling on these vehicles so that is going to be a good thing I think this year, certainly Scotland is obviously but I'll be dealing with and audited by the energy saving trust so definitely think that they're good thing to help dealerships try and sale these vehicles, you know, without with a knowledge. Knowing it happend myself when I bought my first car. They don't have a clue. And that's what we're finding a lot when people join our club as well, they don't actually know what chargers that were made to have they don't, are not told us that we have to charge how to charge, that sort of thing so hopefully that will come in and that will will help and save us in the future. Gary C 24:51 I mean there is anecdotal stories of, you know, iPace drivers who pull up to a rapid charger and then plug in on the AC because nobody's actually told them that no you can actually use the CCS on this and it will give you a much faster charge and that's that's purely down to education at the dealership level. I'm just thinking, Heather is it... no. Let me go back to Leanne. Are you comfortable we've covered the topic? What do you wants to do? Do we want to hand over to Heather? Leanne 25:19 And I think so, yes so when Heather would be very interested to hear what you're bringing to the table today. Heather 25:25 So, basically, what I've got to talk about today is grants and loans that's available through a ScotHome Energy Scotland, and we're a network of local advise centres who cover the whole of Scotland, we have Expert Advisors We offer free impartial advice on energies even keeping warm at home renewable energy cleaner travel and cutting waste and water and things like that as well, we're funded by the Scottish Government and managed by the energy saving trust, and the mission, we have is to help people in Scotland keep warm at homes, reduce their bills and help tackle climate change. So I deal with the business sustainable transport side of things, but we have a number of grants and loans available through Scotland to help the uptake of electric vehicles, ebikes and things like that as well. The domestic customers, the loan funding and grants are via the Home Energy Scotland number and I can get that if anybody's interested in that later on on. We have an interest free electric vehicle loan that's funded by transport Scotland. They offer drivers in Scotland loans of up to 35,000 and that's to cover the cost of purchasing a new pure electric vehicle. We also have up to ten thousand pounds to cover the cost of purchasing a new electric motorcycle or scooter. And that's over six years as well. The vehicles must be eligible for the plugin grant. So that's just a new thing this year, they saw that means that cars with the purchase value over 50,000, and plug in hybrids are not eligible anymore for it. So, we have also the domestic charge point grant I know down in England, you have the one for the Office of low emission vehicles and up in Scotland, we have an extra 300 pounds funding on top of that through the energy saving trust. So it's good same amount towards putting a charge point in in your home. We have, egh we don't, obviously just encourage customers to change to EVs, we want to try and get customers, into more sustainable transport. So we have ebike loans as well. We have an ebike loan up to 6000 pounds. That's over four years, interest free. We also offer ebike trials, but at the moment, those are because of Covid those have been put on hold, but that's certainly something if anybody in Scotland's interested in to give Home Energy Scotland a call that's a free trial. So, the business side of things is what I deal with. We have sustainable transport reviews that we can do fleet reviewed for somebody that's got one vehicle in their fleet to somebody that's got 500. We can work out the best solutions for them as to whether to downsize their fleet, whether to change to electric vehicles, and that sort of thing as well. We've got a funding sources to help them with that as well. We've got the low carbon transport business loan. That's very similar to the domestic debate one, but you can borrow up to 120,000 pounds per business as well. And that can also be used for things like telematics systems and video teleconferencing facilities. We have ebike business loans as well, so you get a we bit more for businesses up to 30,000 available. And low carbon Hackney cab loan with interest free loans up to 120,000 pounds to help customers change from an old Euro5 diesel to a Euro6 and that's just to help with our low emissions zones that's going to be happening here in Scotland. So, there's other things as well. We've got business charge point grant charge point grant funding because at the moment there's businesses are eligible eligible for up to 50% funding that's capped 25,000, and public sector organisations are eligible for full funding up to 100,000 so I've got lots and lots of grants and funding available up here. So I'd love to see that down in England as well at some point, Jonathan 29:50 Scotland leading the way. Leanne 29:55 I have just had a look on the English side actually and it's nowhere near, and no, it's it's very disappointing. And to think that we are supposed to be in inverted commas, the United Kingdom, and yet. Some, some countries seem to be able to do it so much better than others within the UK. And I must say I'm very disappointed, because I called it encouraging people on low incomes, to spend money to make these changes to their home energy to their transport, and, and, and to businesses as well the fact that you're offering it to businesses I mean businesses in England would seriously, take up an offer like that, especially when it comes to things like charge points in their premises. Gary C 0:24 There were two things that came up when you talked about it, you've already addressed one which is, you know, Scotland to do it while the rest of the UK. But the other question that came up in my mind is, you know, how many people know about the loans and the grants that are available because here in the UK. sorry here in England, as you say we've got the Office of the low emission vehicles and they will give you the plug in car grant and the amount of money for the chargers but the number of people actually know about that before they go and buy a car is minimal. So, you know, what sort of uptake are you getting on these kind of loans in Scotland? Heather 1:05 I don't have figures off the top of my head. Since the beginning of lockdown then we're really quiet with EV loans, but the ebike loan has more than tripled's with, it's just overtaken everything. I think so so far that a lot of the eBike shops have sold out. But yet, they're certainly picking up maybe with the electric vehicle loan. And I think with the benefit in kind changes in April as well has certainly encouraged a lot more businesses to change as well, Jonathan 1:38 if, if I could just ask her a question I know Scottish energy saving trust were talking about this interest free loan over six years being extended to used vehicles now. New or ex demo up to six months old or 6000 miles. But they did actually get in touch with me oh best part of a year ago, asking my thoughts and I think, for those on lower incomes, that don't want to borrow up to 35,000 perhaps want to borrow ten an interest free loan for them on a used EV will be absolutely brilliant Have you heard any more news, Heather about that possibly happening? Heather 2:14 Haven't heard a thing Jonathan at all. It certainly was talked last before the beginning of the last financial year, but there's been absolutely nothing about it and I really do thank it would help a lot of people, it's as expensive for, you know some people some of the vehicles are still you know 30 or 40,000. And it's just, yeah, I think it would be good to actually get that and but at the moment I haven't heard anything about it at all so, Jonathan 2:41 So it's great in Scotland, but it's not absolutely perfect yet so we've got a lot of work to do. Heather 2:46 I do actually have some of the customers who, when they phone in, they actually have said that the dealership, have put them on to us and told them about the lawn so that's really good to hear some of the dealerships are, you know, taken on board and, and not just plugging in loans and things so Jonathan 3:03 I've had people from the north, like, Berwick and just the other side of the border in England, asking me whether they qualify for the Scottish energy saving trust. And I've just unless you actually physically live in Scotland that no you can't so even people in England have about this interest free loan basically. Gary C 3:21 Interesting. Leanne 3:27 Gill?Are you ready for that? Gill 3:29 I was sort of virtually putting my hand up there to say I think we've already learned a lot in England from EVA Scotland, because you know they're doing so, so much good work on behalf of EV drives in Scotland, and we'd love to, you know, to kind of replicate and build on that in England, and I think an awful lot of learn a lot that we can learn from you hetaher and others in Scotland and actually other nations as well so so EV A England were really really keen to sort of, you know, those good words around collaboration and partnership, you know, very very keen to do that. Yeah. Gary C 4:10 So Heather just one final question on this, where is that funding actually coming from I mean obviously it's the government, but is he got it from Scottish taxes or what? Heather 4:21 It's the Scottish Government, and so it's not, it's Transport Scotland, emm is the transport side of things for the ebikes, but as they they a part the Scottish Government that's offering the money there so. Yep. Gary C 4:35 Okay, fantastic, Jonathan. Jonathan 4:38 Yes. Gary C 4:39 Where are we with EV infrastructure? Jonathan 4:42 EV infrastructure. It's a little bit like a chicken and egg scenario. Ones got to keep up with the other. I used to hear people saying well when there's a rapid charge on every street corner then I'll think about getting an EV, but we all know the reality is that that's just not viable and it's just not needed, either. So, I think, EV's infrastructure is keeping up with regard to physical machines, tech going physically in the ground I think that's progressing well particularly in Scotland. The things we need to do with regard to infrastructure is how you pay for it. Having a raft of RFID cars or apps, or tags, or lifting your left leg up at 45 degrees in order to activate a charge has got to stop and I think leaders such as Instvolt, where it's just go with your debit or credit card and waft in front of the machine. And, and use it is the way forward and I know the government have said any new rapids going in from the beginning of this year have to be contactless payment. So that's great but obviously we're still got all the infrastructure that's got years left life left in it. That could do with being converted to contactless payment. So that's one thing. I think the other thing is the, at the moment the CCS debacle with certain makes of rapids, not working on certain vehicles with CCS think the manufacturers need to talk to the people that make these machines and the manufacturers really ought to test every type of machine for every manufacturer before they release the car to the public. And the other big thing is, hats off to Ecotricity years ago, when there was no comms. By that I mean, communication between the rapids and the operator communication or comms with Ecotricity when there was no comms through no fault of their own, you know, O2 or the Wi Fi gone down. Then machines would default to free vend, which was brilliant. Now, sadly, with ChargePlace Scotland, if there's no comms in the back of beyond the Highlands, then it will sit, with no comms and won't give out any electricity, until some chap turns open in a van and fixes it. That is really frustrating. So I'm constantly badgering ChargePlace Scotland through various channels, just to make this whole default to free vend being the norm. So that's where we are on infrastructure from my point of view. Gary C 7:22 One of the things that comes out of what you've just said particularly that last point is the whole area of maintenance of units because, you know, if you go on to, particularly zap map, and have a look you can see instantly which units are out of service and you, you can look and see some of them have been unable to be used for two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, six months. And there has to be from my point of view, there has to be some sort of minimum service level which says that if once a faulty charger has been reported it has to be back up and running within, I mean, pick a figure 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours. The figure is immaterial as long as that service level agreement is is maintained and it has to be consistent across all chargers and all charging networks. Jonathan 8:12 In the early days when I went down to from John o'Groats to Land's End and back to John o'Groats with Chris Ramsey back in 2015. Goodness me that's five years ago. and it's 24 kilowatt hour leaf I shall never forget we went to place called Pitlochry on the A9 in the Cairngorms, and the previous person that had used it had tripped the charger, so it just wasn't working, and it had tripped the main fuse if you like in with a box that's at the side of the wall next to the charger. So we do the usual thing, rang ChargePlace Scotland, they got on to the local council, and they said "Well we can send a chap out, a week on Tuesday and he'll reset it. So we remonstrated politely. And sure enough there was a chap about an hour and a half away, who works with the council as a Sparky. So they sent him out. So we twiddling our thumbs for an hour and a half. And this chap from the council came opened up these big cabinets with what's called an electronic electricians panel key, which is just a key with a fancy triangle in the middle you can buy them from any hardware shop, opened up the cupboard and turned it back on. I shut the cupboard and shook her head as we waited for this, it was gonna be a week on Tuesday before some other technical bloke came. So needless to say, this is going on the record, I've got myself a little panel key. And I've used it countless times where turned up to a charger with no power I've opened the box I've flicked the switch and it works. Now when you talk to ChargePlace Scotland: Oooo you better not do that, you know, you're going to trip yourself electrocuted. We'll send a specialist team out a week on Tuesday to do exactly the same thing. Gary C 10:06 In a few minutes I'm going to talk about the future of charging but one of the things that personally bugs me more than anything else is turning up at a charger and there's one unit. And it's in use. Yeah, whereas, you know, you go to our good friends at Tesla, and you turn up at the superchargers, and I think the minimum they have any location is four, and the maximum, I forget the exact figure Is it 42 or 44 they've got at Nebbenes in Norway? You know, I understand the technical limitations of why they would only put one charger in at any location but Instavolt always put two in. And as I said, Tesla always put four plus in. Why can't the others? Jonathan 10:54 I think here in Scotland if it's in the middle of nowhere, there is the aspect of getting enough power to that particular site in order to power it, that can be a huge problem Helmsdale in particular, took ages to come alive cos they needed to physically put extra poles in the ground and carry electricity, five miles off the beaten track just to supply this rapid. So there is that. What has also been the benefit in Scotland, is the various councils who look after ChargePlace Scotland's public charges. Various councils have started introducing a fee, a charge for charging. Now, that particular here on Orkney has been absolutely brilliant because it's very rare now to see an EV on a rapid charger. Because when he was free. And let's be honest, we all do it if there's something free, we're going to grab it, so you'd have people who had had a drive, had solar panels have the means to charge their own electric vehicle on Orkney. But if it's free, then they will go out of their way to plug in to a free because they're getting it for nothing. And that made them feel really smug. Introduce a fee and I can't remember the last time I saw a car on a charger Theya re being used, but the amount of use has just dropped off. So, you think, charging for charging does help people to realise it's cheaper to charge at home or to sleep. And then for those occasional trips, put into the motorway services, Ecotricity, or Instavolt. And to date, have not had to queue for a rapid when I've done one on my crazy drives from Leicester to Orkney. So, it tends to be locals that will hog rapids, if they're free. Gary C 12:46 Dan you've been quiet so far. Do you have any thoughts on this? Dan 12:50 No. I've been very blessed because I've been driving EVs for five years I've had very, very few problems but I think I suspect Jonathan's done a fair few more miles than I. I've been, I've been very lucky. And I think a lots made out of it. And I think that i think the infrastructure is is problematic but I actually think it's a bit better than we sometimes talk about you know bad bad news always travels further, it seems, other than I did send my wife to Tesla place the other day, first time she'd ever sort of ventured long distance on her own and I sent her to one with two stalls. Both were busy. So that was a rarity I think but I always think charging been okay and I think it is getting better. But, you know, if you have a, I haven't always had a Tesla I've had other cars and I've actually found it relatively easy. I found it pretty easy. I think we've made a bit of a hodgepodge of it in the UK, and I do think it is, it's getting sorted when you think about it, Jonathan will know better than me but know all the Instavolts springing up. Engenie or as they're now know, Osprey . Ionity, you know, Fastned where there's a lot more isn't there now there was a couple of years ago a lot lot more. Jonathan 14:13 Yeah Gary C 14:15 I think the one thing that we said several times on this podcast is the charging infrastructure will never be as bad as it is today. it will always get better From today onwards. Dan 14:23 And I think that's just reflects exactly what you said. I think my, my point I always make is because we talk about residential charging quite a lot on on streets without easy, you know, easy to get into with infrastructure. I always think we'll end up probably with more infrastructure and we need at some point. I think that's a few years away, but I think that's where we could end up and I think that's probably what has to happen but you're going to see this just extraordinary investment into EV infrastructure that's already started but you know you can see the lights are going on now with the finance houses with investments organisations with governments, with charging companies we're seeing the opportunity. So I actually think we'll end up with more but it's still a bit still a bit frustrating isn't it but I don't think it's quite as bad as, as people would have you believe I think a TV presenter Alex Beer. Last night was was on on Twitter kind of problem with our iPce I think she ran out and then she had some some trouble charging and then these stories always seem to make it straight on page seven of the same reaction right right wing. Whereas if someone runs a petrol doesn't make the press does it? on the other hand. Gary C 15:36 It's the same as the Tesla battery fires, isn't it, you know, whenever those happens it's sort of front page news Dan 15:41 Yeah, Gary C 15:42 Dan, I read lots about the fact that all EV's are big elitist and expensive. Is that right? ( that's your cue to go into your little bit by the way.) Dan 15:54 So yeah, my kind of question really was, how do we kind of get manufacturers to to mainstream EVs, what should they do things, so I kind of was thinking back and I was thinking back to sort of three years ago when I was planning the first ever Fully Charged Live at that point there were only around 10 EVs that we could construct a show around. It was the leaf and it was the obviously three Tesla's it was the. It was Zoe, there wasn't there wasn't a lot to choose from. And at that point, there were some considerable gaps in what was available. Many of those gaps are now catered for, but some segments remain unaddressed so really my question really was for the panel, what were the remaining opportunities? When will they be taken? And by who? Leanne 16:38 I can sort of interject with that. So, there's one particular story of someone that actually quite a few people in the EV world know who lives up inHull and he actually had to give up his eNV200, which he actually required seven seats for due to their occupation I do believe one of them's a child minder. And he had to give it up because of all the issues he had surrounding rapidgate. And from what we're seeing bar the Tesla Model X, we are sincerely lacking in a people carrier style vehicle that can hold more than five passengers. Gary C 17:19 Although I was just reading literally about an hour ago about the, is it the Mercedes eVito the new version of that which is now, an Eight seater, but obviously that's going to have a Mercedes price tag on it. So, I mean, who, who is in who produces an eight seater that's not an EV that we would like to make into an electric version, which which manufacturers are in that market space at the moment Leanne 17:47 so I would say Volkswagen and Ford. You've got the S max with Ford, and Volkswagen that have the, the torque. It's not the tour and it's the Sharan isn't it well they had the Sharan that had seven seats and then of course they've got, the more van type vehicles that are very popular amongst taxi drivers in the diesel form. So I do think Ford and Volkswagen could pluck that gap. And probably other Volkswagen Group, who also provide those vehicles so Seat. I'm not sure if Skoda have one yet. Jonathan 18:24 I do feel have a certain amount of sympathy for manufacturers because they're going to use to produce movies but they're going to hit the most popular segment first, which has always been small family sized hatchbacks. And then when you look at people carriers and two seater sports cars they're sort of lower on their ranking of popularity so they're not going to push them, they're going to push the ones that are going to sell in volume, first to try and get some of their r&d costs back. So, it is a bit of a predicament for them. Leanne 18:57 And it is a shame that a lot of these vehicles have diesel as well but it's the pulling power, I guess for when you do have a fully loaded car with seven people and luggage. You need that torque which would be ideal from the electric vehicle because it's there. Gary C 19:11 The other sort of aspect of that when we talk about pulling power is literally the ability to be able to tell something. I mean if you've ever been down the A30 in Cornwall and Devon about this time of year you'll see there's quite a lot of cars towing caravans. And you know what, I don't think if you know if you take away the Model X, there aren't that many vehicle many electric vehicles that have the ability to tow something like a caravan without a serious impact on the range. Is that right? Heather 19:45 I think the Nissan eNV200, he can. I think it's more legally, i think the insurance you're not able to like probably some of them could tow but it's just because of the insurance, but yeah yeah definitely more more vehicles that you can pull with Jonathan 20:01 personally interesting one has also cost, a few eNv200 vans to farmers here on Orkney, and they've said 'Can I fit a towbar?' And I said, well you can because it's exactly the same chassis as the diesel NV200, but it's not been type approved, and it could invalidate your your insurance, and I say all of them have gone I'm not nothered just fit it with a tow bar, and that's okay no problem at all. Gary C 20:25 So what are the other market segments. Don't let me, let me rephrase that I was reading something earlier on today that one of the constraints in EVs is actually the supply because they can basically the demand is there they can basically sell as many as they can make and it's the supply that's the bottleneck so if that's the case, should they be should manufacturers be looking at upping the supply for the models that they currently have or should they be saying right well you know, we've got the iPaces and the Honda Es and the MG ZS EVs. Should we now be looking at expanding the range and diverting our supply towards a seven seater an eight seater something that's got a large towing capacity, something that's not an SUV something that's, you know, a little two seater sports car is there a case to say that that's possibly what manufacturers should be looking at? Jonathan 21:22 Obviously they're gonna say I've got such a legacy of internal combustion engines around their necks, that they can't just make that switch, because overnight their income stream would, would drop I think Robert made the point quite well. A few times, because they're a little bit like drug addicts, they've got to wean themselves off fossil burning engines. And they're finding that tough you only if you look at the likes of Tesla, they've got none of that legacy holding them back, and they can't make Model 3s fast enough. In order in a different way differently, but it just illustrates the point that as much as manufacturers might say they want to go down the route, financially, they just can't make the switch, overnight, because it's just not viable for them financially. Dan 22:10 It's certainly seeing a lot of SUVs now. I mean, not that that has changed because that was levelled at the sort of EV sector a couple of years ago where the SUVs and now there's a plethora of them It started with a very very good compact SUVs like the Kona, and then the e-Nero, and Robert, on Fully Charged talking about the Nissen Ariya only, only last week and you can see a lot of those coming through, but of course that is dictated by the fact that SUVs is is generally the biggest segment because they they push that very hard because it's more metal more fuel, you know, and so that's been very successful. The one we constantly get asked about as estate cars, constantly get asked about about that. And then there are signs, but actually when you've got an electric vehicle and you've got an efficiency to think of I think the estate car shape is fantastic. So I think we'll see some really good estate cars come through, but it feels like it feels like slow going. It does feel like by 2022 2023 2024. We'll have most of these little pockets, different segments, sort of still full but I totally agree with Jonathan, they're in a no win situation the car manufacturer it is incredibly difficult to do this given the baggage they've got. And the fact that they're facing looking backwards saying, well, you know, I'll be just cannibalising our core business here Gary C 23:28 but at the end of the day if, if, for example, the UK Government moved to 2030 or 2032 is a date for banning the sale of new fossil fuels, they're going to have to bite that bullet, and take that hit aren't they? Jonathan 23:43 We think bite the bullet early that's, that's the kind of thing it's about being being bold we started off this podcast about being bold and I think really, if you're at the front end you know it's going to be painful. But if you're at the back it's going to be much much worse and I think we always praise manufacturers when they really go for it. You know, I mean I had an 3 I was my first car, I absolutely loved it. And, you know, BMW haven't really come to the car with anything new since that and I think that Jonathan corect me if I'm wrong I think that's 2013, the first I3 something like that? Dan 24:17 Seven long years so you know we'd be the first ones to say, bravo but you've got to be single minded Haven't you we've seen quite a lot of schizophrenia from the car companies where one minute they're there, you know, we're really pro electric and the next minute there seem to be pulling away there's tensions that VW can see it there's apparently tension that Volvo between Geely the parent company and Volvo and you can see that in, in most of them it's really really difficult but I would just say, if anyone ever listens to any of us: be bold. But obviously, when it's one man making a decision which seemingly is often the case over at Tesla or maybe to pick up on our there that Rivian you know it is easier I think to force these decisions through when it's a committee making these decisions much much more complex. Gary C 25:06 Gill, Gill 25:06 yeah. Again that word Bold I was just thinking of rivian, actually there, and thinking that Rivian is bold and beautiful and their pickup truck, of course, which is going into production next year will be very exciting I think but is there an opportunity for perhaps a European manufacturer to bring something onto the market that is affordable in terms of, you know,a Backie, a pickup truck that's fully electric because I think that could be quite interesting. Dan 25:37 Definitely we may or may not be doing an episode on arrival soon so then they are akin to akin to rivian, in terms of building their own kind of their own kind of platform, and they'll be working with, with other parties. And then there's Israeli company called Ree R-Double-E who are also doing you know fantastic stuff with kind of platforms and they'll be building vehicles for for others and if you look at what's happened with with Polstar recently obviously that's part of the Volvo family.Part of the Geely family. And actually, it's interesting to see what what they're doing, but we need more of that at that affordable level again. When people say to me, when's the 10,000 pound or a 15,000 pound electric vehicle coming along. I have to say I'm quite embarrassed to say I can't really offer them much comfort option to send them to ecocars Jonathan 26:29 I'll have to bring your wadge to Fully Charged Gary C 26:37 What I do find. Well I was gonna say fascinating but a little disturbing is you've got companies like VW and they've obviously made a decision that they're going to manufacture a range of electric vehicles you've got the, you know, the usual suspects that we've talked about already the Nissans and the Renaults but you know one of the largest car manufacturers in the world Ford has been strangely silent when it comes to that Heather 27:02 It is a bit strange. Gary C 27:04 It is. I have a friend, colleague should I say who was quite high up in Ford he's now moved over to General Motors and I sort of asked him about this and he said, You know, I'm much more comfortable with what General Motors are doing than I ever was with the strategic direction that Ford have taken and I can see a point in the not too distant future where a company like Ford will start to become irrelevant. Dan 27:33 When I'm... sorry. Leanne 27:36 I was gonna say when the best they've been offering on the MEB platform is, you know, a self charging hybrid. It's, and the cost as well I mean I've seen the Mondeo hybrid as well and the cost of those things is just astronomical, it's, it's just going to put people off and Ford is Ford along with Volkswagen and probably one of the most popular brands out there in the UK, you know, in terms of Fleet cars as well as personal transport so it's very much going to be a case of, they may fall out of favour. For VW instead where VW we're making the progress. Gary C 28:17 Yeah,totally agree totally agree. Jonathan 28:20 I think one of the good signs is the new Volkswagen Group so Skoda Volkswagen and Seat with the new eUP on their different versions, I think the cheapest is the Seat coming in at £10000, huh. I think that's the cheapest brand new EV on the market, and I believe they're all sold. Okay, it's sort of basic and it's not got all the toys on but it's got a fantastic range. And again, I think that's just another good sign that the prices are dropping for new TVs that are proper four door cars, Leanne 29:00 and we could see that being a very popular in the secondhand market a few years down the line and hopefully more people will be able to afford that type of vehicle through yourself. Jonathan 29:07 Yeah, Gary C 29:08 right. I want to talk about the future of EV charging. Now, having an accessible working charging setup is absolutely crucial to EV uptake coming if we look as an example, as I said earlier, the success of the Tesla supercharger network that there still isn't any other network remotely close to it, in terms of coverage cost and ease of use. But what will this look like as more and more EV's hit our roads at the moment for example you've got rapid charges in locations such as pub car parks Park and rides Starbucks. Charging companies are getting in with countrywide chains such as mastodons McDonald's Miller and Carter and up in the Lake District, Booths, people like that. And they're installing at their locations but you then look at companies such as BP Chargemaster and shell and they're adding them to their petrol stations Gridserve is looking at hubs, as their business model. How do we see the rollout of charging in the next few years will fast and destination charging dominate, or are we going to be looking at more and more high power charges. What's the general though on that? Leanne 30:19 I think there's a, an option for both depending on the area you live in my big example would be the, maybe not so green city of Brighton, very much Victorian streets, you know, parking it premium You're lucky if you can get car park on the road you live in, you know, you may have one electric blue charger on each road which admittedly has been a massive increase in chargers in the past year. But if you're looking for everyone to move to EV, you're probably going to need some faster charging spots just outside the city to encourage the EV uptake because people know they're not going to be able to get on the charger when they want to such as overnight when they're, you know not using their vehicle. Gary C 31:04 Is that not indicating that potentially. We need fewer if we in places like Brighton you can't put in as many destination charges or, you know, the seven kilowatts so we therefore need more 50 kilowatts 65 kilowatts hundred and 20 kilowatts hundred and 50 kilowatts. Leanne 31:23 Yes, I think. Certainly, the sort of the charge hub model that grid server looking at would would be ideal for somewhere like that maybe obviously Brighton's right at the end of a major trunk road and motorway So somewhere close to the end of that motorway would be perfect for people that actually live in the city. And as you say with 50 kilowatt plus chargers. Jonathan 31:45 If I can just mention Norway, it's good to look at other countries that are much further ahead than the UK. I know my good friend Ewan McTurk who does a brilliant YouTube channel called Plug Life TV. He went over to Oslo. And he one of his videos, he's in his apartment window counting the number of TVs going past his hotel window. It was oh eight out of 10 cars were electric. And as he drove around, yes, there were some rapid charging hubs with a dozen rapids, none of them were being used, and he saw countless small sized battery EVs parked on the side of the street, not plugged in. And it was a real eye opener to him and me when I watched his video. The fact that people with small range electric vehicles, don't always want to be plugged in. And it's just interesting to see how human behaviour does work, where there is great EV uptake such as in Norway. It doesn't seem to be an issue about having a charger. You know connected to the lamppost and on every street, whether the Norwegians think differently to most British, I don't know, but it was interesting to watch. Leanne 33:01 I'd be interested to know what their public transports like as well outside of the cities like like Oslo so if they wanted to go on a trip to another city elsewhere in the country. Are they going to take their short range EV or are they going to jump on a train? Jonathan 33:15 Yeah, good point. Yeah, the whole way we get around has to be looked at. And we have to get away from this fact that we need to have our own set of wheels. Leanne 33:24 I think that's come from years and years of sort of overpriced public transport and unreliable public transport and, of course, now not very green public transport in a lot of cases. Jonathan 33:33 Yeah, Gary C 33:35 just sort of wrapping this background to charging itself, many, many years ago when I was a slip of a lad. I used to work in an attended service petrol station. And at that point, and we're talking for 240 odd years ago, the profit on a gallon of petrol cars we sell them in gallons at that point not not litres was miniscule, and the, the profit that the petrol station made was on the other things that were sold, and that's still the case today. But if we then look at charging the profit on the charging is on the actual price of the electricity. Whereas if we go to something like the Gridserve model where you've got lots and lots of charges and you've got people who are going to be there for 15, 20, 30, 45 plus minutes. Is there a case to say, the price of charging might be reduced. But we've then also got data and he's looking at putting in a Marks and Spencers type thing at each or Costa Coffee at each thing, is there a case to say that the profit will then be made outside the actual charging itself. And that could be used to reduce the price of charge at a hub? Heather 34:51 That's a great idea, I am certainly a lot of the charge points in Scotland but quite normal. And if you've not got any facilities same toilets food or anything so, yeah, I do think it's a really good idea what what good surfer AM. So. Yep, definitely should follow one another charge points, Leanne 35:13 It's a bit like the service centre model. So for example if you go to services. You know that all at the major trunk road there's going to be demand for those items. So, you know, They obviously add a markup on that. Knowing that people will pay that money for those other items, and you know people Gary C 30:46 There were two things that came up when you talked about it, you've already addressed one which is, you know, Scotland to do it while the rest of the UK. But the other question that came up in my mind is. Leanne 0:06 Their home energy to their transports, and, and, and to businesses as well the fact that you're offering it to businesses I mean businesses in England would seriously, take up an offer like that, especially when it comes to things like charge points in their premises. still do go and fill up at service stations, but I imagine not as much because they don't need to but then they probably make a lot more profit from their overpriced Burger King or other slogan inserted here. Gary C 35:42 Gary C 30:46 There were two things that came up when you talked about it, you've already addressed one which is, you know, Scotland to do it while the rest of the UK. But the other question that came up in my mind is. Leanne 0:06 Their home energy to their transports, and, and, and to businesses as well the fact that you're offering it to businesses I mean businesses in England would seriously, take up an offer like that, especially when it comes to things like charge points in their premises. Indeed, indeed, any further thoughts on the future of charging is it, you know, where would we like to see it in five years 10 years time, Leanne 35:53 I would certainly like the contactless model to have made progress. I think you said it before, Gary a very good example of where that would be very useful would be in a taxi rank. So where you've got the conductive charging and where taxis waiting at the taxi rank, then can charge contactlessly, without having to plug in, Gary C 36:13 I believe there's a fully charged episode about that I could be wrong I think it was on the podcast or they were interviewing somebody on that Heather 36:21 I quite like the Dundee's they've put charge points in multi storey car parks that seems quite a good idea. So, basically, you know, people can charge up during the day and then the people that live nearby can be plugged in overnight if they don't have a drive we so Jonathan 36:40 I cann see charging homes for those who have got a drive, becoming more popular. We're starting to see business models from various electric companies offering to pay you to charge at certain time so I think There's an exciting project about to start on Orkney called reflex. Basically, we're getting up to 1000 EVs on the island that will help in a massive way to balance the grid, because we often have too much electricity. It can't go anywhere so we end up having to turn turbines off. So thinking five years time we'll see people see in a vehicle, not as a means to get from A to B, but a battery storage unit will actually earn your money, so I can get exciting things happening in the EV world and home energy. Yeah. Gill 37:28 I think it will be a little bit like the energy mix you know we need a mix of energy, don't we, we, we will need, and we're seeing, more and more and mix of charging solutions to suit people's needs, so it'd be even you can park at home overnight, then probably home charging is going to be most suitable for you. And as you say with certain energy suppliers now and smart charging providers, then you can actually get paid to charge in effect. But then there's also lots of new technologies that are really exciting like wireless charging, you know vehicle to grid and there's a lot of work done in those areas as well, though. Yeah, it's, it's definitely one to watch I think the innovation opportunities are pretty great. Jonathan 38:16 I think it's great for people to get away from the thinking of, I go to a place to sit always feel like a petrol station. They automatically think well I need to go somewhere to fill up my electric car, but when you start to tactfully explain to them that you can do it whilst you sleep. We can do it off your solar panels or wind turbine. And it's getting people to think differently in a big way. And think different to what we've been doing for the last hundred years when it comes to fuel in our vehicles. I think that's, that's quite it's quite interesting challenge to make people think differently. Gary C 38:51 And I think if we were to sort of pick up the key word that's come through on this podcast more than once it's, you know, that's the bold thing to do, isn't it, you know to to re educate a large amount of the, of the population to say, this is how you've done it for as long as you've been driving. Yeah. And this is how it needs to happen in the future. Jonathan 39:10 Yes. Yeah, Gary C 39:12 it's time to share a cool renewable or EV thing with the listeners Did anybody bring a cool thing I believe you've got something Heather Heather 39:19 Yeah. So, I thought it was pretty cool, but Renault has, i think in fact they've actually delivered over 1100 electrics Zoes from subscription service onto. They were formerly known as is it EVEZY, not sure how you pronounce it Leanne 39:37 EV Easy, Yeah. Heather 39:39 So it's the biggest order I think for Zoes in the UK. So EV Easy (or Onto as It's called now) offer all inclusive Electric Car subscriptions with no long term commitment. So it's actually quite an ideal way for people to try and electric vehicle before they make the long term decision to purchase from. So yeah, that's pretty cool that that the bike is what So yeah, that's pretty cool but they're the biggest order of the week Gary C 0:59 Am I right in thinking that that subscription model also includes sort of insurance and servicing and it's all in here?. Heather 1:06 Yeah. Gary C 1:07 That's not bad, not bad. Leanne, your cool thing, please. Leanne 1:11 Well it would seem that Nissan have seen the light. So with the Nissan Ariya albeit the top spec model coming with not just 130 kilowatt CCS, but also 22 kilowatt AC towing capacity. And also, liquid cooled batteries Rapidgate will be a thing of the past. Gary C 1:37 Has anybody else come up with a cool thing? Jonathan 1:41 Mine's not car related, it's hit- well, I found it this morning and put it on Twitter, this electric ferry in Sweden. It's been - there's been lots of talk of ships and you know this is coming out, that's coming out this has been running for 12 months. And it's been absolutely brilliant, no issues I think it was a 22 mile trip, one way and 22 miles back. They've never run out of electricity is working great. And they're projecting payback or waiting to be the same price as it would have been a diesel. So price parity if you like was between year five and year, eight. And these areas like the ferries appear on all these are big one in 35 3035 years, that's the average lifespan. So, for this passenger ferry that carries I think it was up to 30 vehicles, which is similar to ours we have appeal in the northern Isles. It will be cost efficient by year five or year eight. I think that is brilliant. Gary C 2:44 That's the reason it is spectacular impressive. Yeah, Jill Gill 2:50 If I can just grab another result on EVA England survey on the phase out  date of sales of new petrol and diesel cars So, 82% all the participants believe that the phase out date should be moved to a date earlier than 2035. So that's quite exciting to hear. Gary C 3:14 Fantastic, Dan Do you have anything? Dan 3:16 I do fully charge is doing something new called Fully Charged Cities. And we're actually trying to inspire cities and towns around the world to a) show off progress that they're making in clean energy electric vehicles, but also to encourage others to follow suit. So, we had a great time in Dundee around this time last year and we talked about electric taxis and electric car charging on the top of car parks and they've got a visionary group of leaders up in up in Dundee. And we thought it'd be fantastic to know share that story around the world and I know from speaking to Fraser up there actually opened a lot of doors for them, and from our perspective, talking about Norway as Jonathan just was and the progress they've had there talking about all the electric buses in Shenzhen in China or the electric bikes in Utrecht in the Netherlands, that actually gets other cities and other towns to say it is possible, and they're actually surprisingly competitive with each other so we're really excited about, hopefully in addition to the episodes that we run, inspiring some some meaningful change in that level as well. Jonathan 4:24 Brilliant, Leanne 4:24 Is Milton Keynes on your list? Dan 4:26 Of course. Gary C 4:27 Cool. Dan 4:28 People got to nominate themselves but yeah I mean, in the UK. We've had Leanne 4:33 That's a city I've been to Dan 4:34 Milton Keynes is a great example there's some pretty good ones in the UK I'll get killed if I don't mention everyone but Nottingham's another another leader in England, and then we've had it, we've had interest so far from, from California from New Zealand from from Australia, we're kind of reaching around the world to get other cities to show what they're doing because I don't think there's ever been a better time to actually look at how cities and towns operate. And so actually let's have that road back and let's put in the cycle path or let's improve our public transport to encourage active transport running and walking and we're hugely passionate about electric vehicles, but it's electric vehicles of all shapes and sizes. Gary C 5:14 And what I particularly like about that is, there are a lot of towns and cities around the world that are probably thinking, Well, you know, it's not for us, but when they look and see some of the other the other towns and cities that are making a success of it. That changes their mindset, and suddenly you've got a bit of a groundswell. And it sort of snowballs from there Dan 5:34 we're going for a kind of a Eurovision kind of thing. It'll be the biggest event on the planet one day, I mean, back in backing from hopefully Robert can keep up Gary C 5:46 My cool thing is a car cover with solar PV cells built in that can recharge your batteries, while parked. The idea of using solar to charge your vehicles isn't new I mean Jonathan's been doing it for quite some time up in Orkney but this new car cover developed by a French company Armor has a very lightweight solar panels built into it, making it more practical than rooftop solar, albeit with a much reduced capacity, the panel's themselves weigh only about six times the weight of the equivalent area of paper and a four square metre total PV coverage can add about 9.3 miles per day, with an aim to double that within three years based on eight hours of outside exposure. For many people using this while the car is parked in the office will completely cover their commute at zero cost for the provided power, especially if they live in high sun regions such as, Arizona, California Dubai or pretty much anywhere in Australia unfortunately we have no indication of price at the moment. And that's the show for today. Hope you enjoyed listening to it many, many thanks to Leanne, Gill, Heather, Dan, and Jonathan for participating in this roundtable discussion. Links to their social media pages are in the show notes. If you want to contact me, please use EV musings Twitter account @musingsEV,. If you want a quick reference ebook to read on your Kindle I wrote a little something called 'So, you've gone electric?' It's available on Amazon worldwide for the measly sum of 99p or equivalent and it's a great little introduction to living with any electric car. At the moment it's free on Kindle Unlimited, or if you're in the Kindle lending library. Please check it out. Links for everything we've talked about in the podcast today are in the description. As I said at the top of the show. If you enjoyed this podcast please subscribe it's available on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast please leave a review, as it helps raise visibility and extend our reach in search engines. Thanks as always my co founder Simon. You know his parents live on a farm and they tend to try and celebrate Christmas in quite a novel way. I asked him what's the one thing they have that's so different from a normal Christmas. He told me: Dan 7:47 glitter amongst the chicken feed really Gary C 7:48 Thank you everybody for participating and thanks to everybody here for listening. Bye.