Robert Jolly talks about cognitive impairments and complex interfaces

Robert says: "The message I had to give folks if it was just one is don't make assumptions about how people with disabilities use the web". Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barrier they encounter on the web. A quick reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. Today I'm talking with Robert jolly. Hey, Robert, how are you? Robert Hey, Nic, I'm doing well. Thank you. Nic Glad to be talking to you. You've been on the show before for the long form. Actually, I think you were the very first guest of the podcast back in Oh, 2017. So it's been a while? Robert It definitely has, it's good to be back. Nic It's good to have you back. So let me start by asking you this, what's your disability or your impairment? Robert So Nic, I had a stroke a little over 10 years ago, and that stroke had some some significant initial effects that I've largely recovered from, but I still have some, some cognitive deficits, where I, I have some memory issues, sometimes I can't hold a train of thought, for a long time, especially on a complicated matter. So you know, definitely I have a bit of a disability with, with how my brain is working these days. Nic So how does that impact your use of the web? Is there... What would you say your greatest barrier, or maybe your greatest pet peeve is around web use and cognitive impairments? Robert I think, both a barrier and pet peeve because it's really frustrating to have overly complicated interfaces, you know, presented to me or, or if there are a series of instructions, or a lack of instructions, and just the assumption that I'm going to know exactly what's needed of me, especially if I'm inputting information somewhere. You know, one of those examples is, you know, having instructions in placeholders that disappear. That's really, you know, off putting to me, you know, both because I've worked in accessibility, but also just as a person who can't remember what the label was in that field from, you know, potentially 5 or 10 seconds ago. That makes me you know, that makes me either do one of two things, either I try to refresh the page with it being blank, so I can review that, that placeholder and then go back to filling out the form. Or if it's something that's really complicated, and I'm super frustrated, I'll just leave and, and so that's the, that's the area where like, you know, overcomplicating things, making making people think really, really hard in in the process of, say, navigating a transaction that makes me just say, like, this isn't worth it, and I'm, I'm just gonna go somewhere else. It's not worth it for me, my brain to hurt or for me to question, you know, my ability to complete the task. Nic Robert, what would be your one message to designers or developers around web accessibility? Robert I think the message I had to give folks if it was just one is don't make assumptions about how people with disabilities use the web. What I mean by that is, is that I think there are sometimes generalizations that get made are often generalizations that get made. And those could be very incorrect without having a you know, good education and background in the diversity of web users or technology users. And you know, just because you build a thing, and you think that your user doesn't have a disability, they certainly might. And, in my case, mine is relatively invisible until it shows up when I'm trying to speak or, or, you know, form a complex, you know, thought or, you know, or speak in some sort of way that I don't have to like pause and think about it, right. So, so that, that sort of, you know, assumptions and generalizations and, and, and sort of decision making that happens that exclude people whether it is intentional or not, is wh